[HSF] Why cardiac surgeons dont do NIH research

Fri May 30 21:13:56 EDT 2008

Don't worry "they" are working on that anomly, too.
tea

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Firstenberg <msfirst at gmail.com>
To: OpenHeart-L at lists.hsforum.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:46:46 PM
Subject: Re: [HSF] Why cardiac surgeons dont do NIH research

yes we are all chopped liver - doing any type of research has become  
a full time project that requires a cast of thousands.  I used to  
enjoy going to small meeting with people really interested in the  
same stuff I was - now, forget it.  Except in academics grants are  
still how they keep score - regardless of the fact that the  
"cardiovascular product line" keeps most hospital systems afloat.

-michael

On May 29, 2008, at 10:30 PM, Tea Acuff wrote:

> What are we ? Chopped liver? I don't give a hoot about funding or  
> IRB's. Tell me what you think and why.
> Oh, yeh, you are an academian. I am choppped liver.
> tea
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Michael Firstenberg <msfirst at gmail.com>
> To: OpenHeart-L at lists.hsforum.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:36:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [HSF] Why cardiac surgeons dont do NIH research
>
> hobby research -
> I like that term.  Now a simple chart review involves so much IRB
> paperwork and assorted headaches it amazes that anything gets
> published anymore.
>
> long gone are the days of asking a simple question just to be
> curious, writing it up, and presenting it to a bunch of colleagues
> who also like to ask and answer questions
>
> -michael
>
> On May 29, 2008, at 10:58 AM, rwmfglycar at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Adam you are quite right in what you say. During the coronary
>> bonanza (or gold rush or whatever you want to call it) we stopped
>> applying for NIH grants and used a part of? our private practice
>> earnings to fund research. Both the medical school and the hospital
>> were already gathering their taxes but because the few big earners
>> we had did not feel they needed every dollar left over and did not
>> mind that we had non surgeons on our payroll they were content .
>> The academic scientists working in the cardiothoracic division were
>> relieved of the burden of
>> grant applications and grant reports and were very productive.We
>> for a period of ten or more years had more papers and abstracts
>> selected for the ACCC and AHA each year than the Cardiology
>> division. But when the Health Care Tsars, trying to control costs,
>> launched an easy?attack on reimbursement for cardiac surgey, and
>> the Medical School missed their customary 60% NIH overhead we were
>> accused of doing "hobby research" and it all came to an end. When
>> there is a pot of gold anywhere there are always those who are
>> quite certain that they have more right than those who earned? it
>> to use and control it. From time to time they will let a little of
>> it trickle through their fingers to the earners. (Kurt Vonnegut).
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Adam Saltman <aes.md.phd at hotmail.com>
>> To: openheart-l at lists.hsforum.com
>> Sent: Thu, 29 May 2008 8:27 am
>> Subject: RE: [HSF] Why cardiac surgeons dont do NIH research
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a vicious cycle, and unfortunately we are trapped in it. I
>> have tried 4
>> times (yes, 4) for R01 grants and been denied, despite "improving"
>> the grant
>> each time according to the study section's comments...
>>
>> The issue is that there are no surgeons are the study sections
>> because to be on
>> a study section you need to have NIH ("or equivalent") funding, and
>> dollars are
>> tight so the PhDs protect each others' livelihoods and say, "That
>> surgeon can
>> just go do some more cases to pay his bills. We only have our
>> grants for
>> income..."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:08:58 -0400
>>> From: msfirst at gmail.com
>>> To: OpenHeart-L at lists.hsforum.com
>>> CC:
>>> Subject: [HSF] Why cardiac surgeons dont do NIH research
>>>
>>> Ugh!
>>>
>>> So I was working with our research group and submitted an RO1 gant
>>> to the
>>> NIH looking at a proposed mechanism for vein graft failure (vs
>>> arteries).
>>> The grant did not even get scored on the primary comment that "
>>>
>>> *we shouldn't study saphenous veins since they are not used
>>> clinically
>>> anymore*".  So according to whoever at the NIH reviewed this -
>>> not only are
>>> there no vein bypasses being performed, but this is obviously not
>>> even a
>>> problem worth studying......
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -michael
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